

s 



J 



LIBRARY OF CONGRESS 



011 897 884 5 



PROCEEDINGS AND DEBATE 



, f 



HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES, 



ON THE 



ELECTION OF SPE; 




'V^ 



The House was called to order by the Clerk at 
twelve o'clock, m. 

Mr. CAMPBELL. I move, Mr. Clerk, that 
the resolution confining debate to ten%iiinutcs be 
suspended until next Wednesday, unless other- 
wise ordered by the House. 

Mr. CLINGMAN, (interrupting.) I do not 
wish to interrupt the gentleman, or to take the floor 
'"rom him for an instant; but I would ask him to 
modify his motion by adding to it a proviso that 
there shall be no voting until that time. The 
gentleman from Ohio will see the reason of this: 
It is, that those members who do not wish to take 
part in the debate may be at liberty to attend to 
the business of their constituents. 

Mr. CAMPBELL. The gentleman from North 
Carolina [Mr. Clingman] can move that as an 
amendment afterwards. 

My reason, Mr. Clerk, for making this motion 
is, that on yesterday the House, by resolution, 
gave notice that " depositions" would be taken, to 
be used on the hearing of the " bills of discovery" 
in regard to " platforms." It is not possible for 
the honorable gentleman from Illinois, [Mr. 
Richardson,] the honorable gentleman from 
Massachusetts, [Mr. Banks,] and the honorable 
gentleman from Pennsylvania, [Mr. Fuller,] 
or any of the other gentlemen who are before the 
House as candidates for the speakership, to de- 
fine their position in ten minutes. I do not know 
how far it is proposed to carry on this investiga- 
tion — how far back we are to go, or to what extent 
the political platforms of this day or of past times 
are to be overhauled for repairs. I have never 
had a great deal of respect for platforms— never 
any unless my own judgment approved them. 

Now, sir, I would, inform the gentlemen who 
are to be interrogated, that I have here a scrap- 
book, which I tender to them for their use. It 
contains, I believe, all the political platforms that 
have been adopted since 1832; all those on the 
slavery question since 1840; I have here the plat- 
form of the Democratic party when the question 
of the annexation of Texas was before the coun- 
try; the celebrated Nicholson letter platform in 



1848; the platform of, 1852 of both the poiitica 
parties of this country, declaring that there 
should be " no agitation cf the slavery question in 
Congress or out of it." I have also some more 
ancient platforms: I have the Buffalo and the 
Pittsburg platforms. I have those which are still 
more ancient: I have in my hand two platforms 
for which I have high regard — the Constitution 
of the United States and the Declaration of Inde- 
pendence. I would have had the Bible, with a 
view to refer those who are about to testify on 
the question of human slavery, particularly to a 
platform made in the mountain by the Savior of 
mankind, for the government of the conduct of 
men. I allude to Christ's sermon on the Mount; 
but I understand that that book is not to be had 
in the Congressional Library. I believe there 
was one copy of it there a long time ago, but it 
is said to have been removed to make room for- 
the works of Eugene Sue. 

I profess, Mr. Clerk, to stand politically on the 
two platforms I have first alluded to— the Con- 
stitution of the United States and the Declaration, 
of Independence. In my intercourse with my 
fellow man I try, without success, to adhere to 
the platform last mentioned. I wish to make 
this suggestion to the Clerk, for the benefit of the 
gentlemen who are to be interrogated in reference 
to the twaddle contained in these party plat- 
forms—particularly to my friend from Illinois, 
[Mr. Richardson,] that there should be a card 
placed over that chair during this investigation 
containing the wholesome warning found over 
the doors of railroad cars, " It is dangerous to 
stand on the platform !" [Laughter.] I make it 
particularly for the benefit of my friend from Il- 
linois: " It is dangerous to stand on the platform" 
which the Democratic party made at the time he 
was nominated. My personal esteem for that 
gentleman induces me to warn him, and the engi- 
neers of his train, of the impending danger. They 
are trying to make great speed upon a "flat bar' 
track, and there is danger of snake-heads! 

It is well known, when testimony was last taker, 
here by the honorable gentleman from Kentucky 



,5- 



rats nil 

Hi' 



Rlr. Cox,] as to how the Democrats construed 
Hie Nebraska bill in the North and in the South, 
in reference to its effects on slavery, that it was 
bIiowm most clearly that the southern Democrats 
mude it mean one tliiii»,and the northern Demo- 
rats an entirely diU'rrent thing. If the gentleman 
BtEu^^upon that platform he will be in danger of 
lion between these two Democratic trains, 
ining north and the other south ujion the 
fcime party track. Mr. Clerk, in friendship, I 
pive the gentleman and his friends, in advance, 
riie benefit of this warning, "/< is dangerous to 
stand on the platform !" 

Mr. BARK8DALE. I should like to ask the 
gentleman from Ohio one question. 

Mr. CAMPBELL. In my ten minutes I have 
not time to be interrogated and to answer. 1 
merely wished to give notice at the start that I 
•hall claim the right to put cross interrogatories 
to those witnesses who arc to be questioned. 

Mr. BARKSDALE. The gentleman says 
lliere is a difFerence in the construction of the 
Nebraska and Kansas platform among the Dem- 
ocrats North and South. Nov/, what I want to 
Jciiow is, whether there is any difFerence of opin- 
ion ill reference to it in the Republican party? 

Mr. CAMPBELL. I have made no inquiries 
ef the Repul)lican party on that point. I do not 
■fieak by authority for that party or any other. 
I will tell the gentleman what 1 Hunk of the Ne- 
braska act. I have ceased to speak for or be 
responsible for any person but myself. I regard 
it as one of the most iniquitous and unjust acts 
tiiat ever passed by the vote of Congress — potent 
for evil, powerless for good results. 

Mr. BARKSDALE. One giving the South 
•he full measure of their rights, and nothing more. 
X)oes the gentleman object to that? 

Mr. CAMPBELL. I speak for myself, and 
t have always said I am willing to give the South 
jLi'd tlu'ir slaves tlieir full rights, undef the Con- 
•slitution; nothing more — nothing more. My ten 
aninutos have expired. 

Mr. R1CHARD.S0N obtained the floor. 

]\Ir. ORR. I hope the gentleman from Illinois 
■will suspend until we can have a vote upon the 
TJiotion of the gentleman from Ohio, [Mr. Camp- 
■B'xi.,] to suspend the ten-minute rule. 

Mr. .TONES, of Tennessee. I see no necessity 
ifor rescinding the ten-minute rule at all, for any 
.particular length of time. I would suggest the 
propriety of suspending it so far as to allow those 
•jeiiilemen for whom the House has been voting 
vvliatever time thi'y may wish to answer such 
.«[uestions as may be propounded to them, or at 
least to answer the interrogatories addressed to 
riiein Ijy my colleague, [Mr. Zollicoffeu.] That 
c«>u be done without rescinding the rule generally. 
The House has voted that it is right'that those 
jeiitlemen should answer thes.? interroMtories, 
and I take it for granted the Hotise will give them 
•ulncient time to reply. I liope, therefore, that 
tliis rule will be suspend(;d so far as the gentle- 
Bii;ii who have been voted for for Speaki-r are 
eonci rned, in answering the questions that may 
he put to ihi'iTi; but no further. 

Mr. MILLSON. I trust the House will not 
■uspend the rule limiting debate at all; and I am 
etili more unwilling that the rule aliould be sus- 
)»e!id(;d for the reason assigned by the gentleman 
iVom Ohio, [Mr. Campdell. J [A voice: " That's 



right!"] Sir, the House yesterday adopted a res- 
olution, general, abstract in its terms, having no 
special application to any particular candidates 
for office, but simply declaring that, in the judg- 
ment of the members of this House, candidates 
for political offices ought to make known their 
opinions to those who are asked to vote for them. 
It has no special application to those gentlemen 
who have been voted for here as candidates for 
the post of Speaker. 

I beg leave to say, with all due deference to 
other gentlemen, that I think the House would 

Elace itself in a somewhat undignified position 
y now suspending the rule for the express pur- 
pose of inviting those gentlemen for whom they 
have been voting for the last six weeks to explain 
their views. 

Mr. CLINGMAN. I would suggest to the 
gentleman, that he move to lay tlie motion of the 
gentleman from Ohio on the table. 

Mr. MILLSON. I shall presently do so 
Mr. Clerk, this resolution, as I have said, is gen- 
eral in its terms. I did not vote for it as a special 
invitation to those gentlemen wlio are candidates 
for the position of Speaker, to address the Houae 
in explanation of their opinion, or to place them 
under any sort of obligation to do so. I am not 
willing that my vote, standing as it docs in favor 
of that resolution, shall be so construed. 

If those gentlemen desire to express their views, 
I have no objection; and I have no doubt that the 
House will acquiesce in their wishes, and afford 
them an oppcn-tunity of delivering their senti- 
ments. But I think it is hardly consistent wilk 
the dignity of the House to invite those gentlemen 
to the stand, and to suspend this rule, under the 
idea that they desire to be heard, when no such 
desire has been intimated by any of them. I d« 
not think the House may properly place them in 
that position. 

If other gentlemen designed to give the resolu- 
tion passed yesterdaj'' this special application, I 
certainly did not. If the candidates desire to 
speak, tTie House v.'ill, I am sure, readily afford 
them the opportunity. If questions are put t« 
them, they can answer, or not, as they may think 
proper; but I do not think this House should 
resolve itself into a debating society, for the dis- 
cussion of allpossible subjects that can be brought 
before it. 

Where is thi.^'debatc to stop? What question 
may not be put to these gentlemen? If any Gen- 
tleman should ask my friend from Illinois [Mr. 
RiciiAPvDsoN] wh(!ther he would be willing tn 
recognize the Walkergovcrnment in Nicaragua, it 
would be said not to be altogether impertinent, for 
the Speaker of the House is the fourth officer of 
the country, and in certain contingencies, would 
be called on to administer the executive duties 
of the Government. Then the question, though 
not pertinent to the duties of the Spcaker'.s chair, 
would be pertinent to the duties which he might 
contingently be called on to execute in the event 
of vacancies in the oflices of President, Vice Pren- 
ident, and Pmsidimt of the Senate. Therefore, 
to test the sense of the House on the question, 1 
move that the resolution submitted by the gentle- 
man from Ohio be laid on the table 

Mr. RICHARDSON. I a.sk the gentleman 
from Virginia and the gentleman from O'.iio la 
withdraw ih'.ir several propositions. If it sliould 



3 



happen to be necessary, in order that gentlemen 
m:iy aiiswerthe questions which are propounded to 
Uiem, it will then be time enough to ask the House 
for the extension. So far as I am concerned, I 
now repeat what I said yesterday — that I am ready 
to reply to the questions which have been pro- 
povuided by the gentleman from Tennessee, [Mr. 
ZoLLicoFFER.] If the propositions above men- 
tioned are withdrawn, I think that I shall be able 
to conclude what I wish to say within the time 
allotted under the rule. 

Mr. BINGHAM obtained the floor. 

The CLERK. Debate is out of order; there 
is a propositiim to lay on the table pending. 

Mr. CAMPBELL, of Ohio. I have no objec- 
tion to the withdrawal of my motion. I made 
tlie motion with a view to accommodate gentle- 
men. 1 have no idea, howeve', that my friend 
can travel over all the ground embraced by those 
questions in ten minutes. 

Several Members. If not, we can then extend 
the time. 

Mr. CAMPBELL. I withdraw my motion. 

Mr. BINGHAM. Before the gentleman from 
Illinois, [Mr. Richardson',] or any other of the 
oandidatis for Speaker, shall )iroceed to answer 
the interrogatories of the gentleman from Ten- 
nessee, [Mr. ZoLLicoFFER,] I desirc to put some 
qu(^stions to the honorable gentleman from Illi- 
nois, [Mr. Richardson,] and to which I hope 
to receive explicit answers from that gentleman, 
as also from the other candidates now before the 
House. In presenting these interrogatories, I 
desire to raise no captious objections to the scn- 
timeuls of the honorable gentleman from Illinois, 
but to ascertain distinctly and clearly what sense 
that gentleman attaches to the terms used in his 
platform, to wit: "the principles of the Kansas- 
Nebraska act?" also, the sense he attaches to 
tliose other words, " squatter sovereignty," upon 
which the changes have been rung for the last 
two years from one end cf the land to the other; 
aiid especially th.e effect he gives to the term 
"nationality," which has been used. so often, 
and with such emphasis, in this Hall, by that 
gentleman and his party.' I, too, have some 
reverence for nationality, but it is the nationality 
which springs from that unity of Government 
which constitutes us one people; and that I may 
know precisely the honorable gentleman's views 
of nationality, I beg leave to present to him the 
following interrogatories: 

I. Do you hold that the Constitution of the 
TJjiited kStates extends to, and is of full force 
willun, the several Territories thereof.' 

II. Do you hold that the people of a)iy of said 
Territories have the right to make any kiw within 
said Territories, whereby any person therein shall 
be deprived " of life or liberty," except as pun- 
ishment for crime on due conviction ? 

III. Do you hold that the people of the Terri- 
tory of Kansas have the right, under the Con.'iti- 
tution, to prohibit slavery within said Territory 
at all times, both before and after their organiza- 
tion into a State.' 

IV. Do you liold that the people of said Ter- 
ritory, undiT the Constitution, have the power 
and the right to legalize slavery v/ithin said Ter- 
ritory by legislative enactment; and the further 
power and riglit thereby to protect and maintain 
■lavery thert ui, by making it a penal oiTcnae for 



any person within said Territory to speak or 
write against such system, or to aid or assist any 
man held as a slave within said Territory to es- 
cape therefrom, with the intent to secure the per- 
sonal liberty of such slave.' 

V. Do you hold that, under the Constitution, 
a person held to service or labor within said "If r- 
ritory, escaping therefrom into any State of Ihis 
Union, can be n^claimed under the fugitive slave 
law, or is such person within the extradition 
clause of the second section of article four of the 
Constitution.' 

VI. Under the Constitution of the United States, 

can the people of any of its Territories rightfully 

I or legally establish any but a republican "form of 

[ government therein? and do you hold that to be 

a republican government which converts the 

j majority of its subjects into chattels, and subjects 

I them to the absolute despotism of the minority? 

I These, sir, ai-e the questions which I put to 

the honorable gentleman, and to each of which I 

j hope to receive from that gentleman direct an- 

1 swcrs. I will not further detain the Plouse. 

I Mr. BOYCE. I will also read to the House 

some interrogatories which I would be glad to 

', have the gentleman from Massachusetts [Mr. 

i Banks] answer. They are these: Are you in 

I favor of restoring the Missouri restriction, or do 

! j'^ou go for the ciitire prohibition of slavery in all 

the Territories of the United States ? Are you 

in flwor of abolishing slavery in the District af 

J Columbia of the United States, and the United 

States forts, dock-yards, &c. ? Do you believe 

in the equality of the v/hite and black races in 

the United States; and do you wish to promote 

that political equality by legislation? Are you 

in favor of the entire exclusion of adopted citizens 

and Roman Catholics from office ? Do you favor 

the same modification of the tariff now that you 

did at the last session of Congress ? 

Mr. RICHARDSON obtained the floor. 
Mr. HUMPHREY MARSHALL. The gen- 
tleman will excuse me a moment. There must 
be several more batches of these interrogatories, 
and I think that it would be better for gentlemen 
to file them with the Clerk, and to allow the can- 
didates to reply to them in a publication at any 
time; for instance, at their own convenience. 
[Laughter.] 
Mr. RICHARDSON. Am 1 entitled to the floor? 
The CLERK. The gentleman frotn Illinois 
was recognized by the Clerk. 

Mr. RICHARDSON. Mr. Clerk, gentlemen 
have chosen, by v/ritten interrogatories, to inquire 
uito the political opinions of gentlemen who have 
been voted for upon this floor in relation to ques- 
tions past, present, and future. I know not, and<, 
care not, whether the object is discussion here or 
discussion somewhere else. I hold them' to the 
issues presented to me, and I shall endeavor to 
answer their questions as fully, freely, and frankly 
as may be possible. 

I now send to the Clerk's desk the questions 
which have bi^en propounded to me, and I ask 
that the first of them may be read. 

The Clerk read the first question, as follows: 
(^jiesticn projyoarulcd hyMr. Zolucoffer to Mr. Richard- 
son. 
" Am T risht in suppo?ing that the freritlciiian from Illinois 
[?/Ii-. KicHARDsoN] rejarUs tlie Kansam-Nebiatika bill as 
promotive of the I'o.maUoi! ol' (Vcc sJiaiea iii tlie Teiritorie* 
oiliautas and Nsbriika;"' 



Mr. RICHARDSON. In reply to the first] 
question of the gentlenifin from Tennessee, [Mr. 
ZoLLicoFFER,] I have to say I voted for the bills 
organizing the Territories of Nebraska and Kan- 
sas beeause I thought them just to all, and I de- 
fended that vote before my constituents upon that 
ground. I intended then, and 1 intend now, that 
the ||ople who go there, or who iiave gone there, j 
shalr decide the question of slavery for them- 
selves, and, so far as I could, admit them as 
States, with or without slavery, as the people 
should decide. In common with northern and 
southern gentlemen, I have said that, in my opin- 
ion, slavery would never go there; but I have 
never, here or elsewhere, urged that as a reason 
why I voted for that bill. I voted for the bill 
because it was just, riglit, and proper, and wanted 
nothing more to defend myself. I repeat here an ; 
ai'gument I have made over and over again before ; 
my constituents, and it is this: if a majority of 
the people of Kansas or Nebraska are in favor 
of slavery, they will have it; if a majority arc ' 
opposed to it, then they will not have it. This is 
the practical result of every theory advocated by 
the friends of the Nebraska and Kansas bill. I 
gave my sanction to this principle in supporting 
the territorial bills of 1850, and have uniformly ■ 
supported the same principles since, whenever 
presented for my action, and shall continue to do 
so in all future cases that may arise. It is a prin- 
ciple lying at the foundation of all popular Gov- 
ernments, that the people of each separate or dis- 
tinct community shall decide for tiiemselves the 
nature and character of the institutions under 
which ihey shall live, and by this principle I am 
prepared to live and die. 1 therefore voted for 
the Nebraska and Kansas bill neither as a pro- 
slavery nor anti-slavery measure, but as a meas- ! 
ure of equal right and justice to the people of all 
sections of our common country. 

Will tlie Clerk now read the next question .'' ; 

The Clerk read the second question, as follows: 

"Am 1 riglit in siipposiiigtliat he advocates the constitu- 
tionality of the Wihnot proviso.^ that in 18 JO, ho opposed ; 
its application In the Territories acquired from Mexico only | 
upon the ground that it was unnecessary, inasmuch as the 
Mexican local laws in those Territories already abolished 
slavery, wliich ought to he sufficient for all Free-Sojil men .' 
and that he eomnuttcd himself to the position, that'if terri- 
torial bills (silent upon the subject of slavery, and leaving 
the Mexican laws to operate) were defeated, he would 
vote for bills with the VVilmot proviso in them ?" 

Mr. RICHARDSON. The next question 
requires a more extendid reply. In the year 1803 
we acquired Louisiana; it was slave territory. 
In 1820 we divided, by lino of 30° 30', that terri- 
tory; north of the line was to be free. In 1845 we 
annexf:d Texas; that was slave territory; we di- 
vided that Ijy extending the line of 3G o 30' through 
that — norlh, to be free. In 1848 we acquired ter- 
ritory from Mexico. That was free. I voted 
repeatedly to extend the same line west to the 
Pacific ocean. I voted for that line with a few 
R,opresentatives from the North, and the whole 
i)ody of southern Rej)rcsentatives. When I gave 
tliose votes, I did not believe then, nor do I 
believe now, that I violated the Constitution of 
the Uijifed States. If you have power, under the 
Constitution, to exclude slavery from half of a 
territory, I thi^ik you have power to exclude 
from all, though such an exercise would be un- 
jiLst and wrong. I have never, therefore, voted 



to exercise that power, except upon the principle 
of compromise. In this connection I desire to read 
from a speech of mine, delivered in this Hall 
April 3, 1850, and make a word or two of com- 
ment upon it: 

" There is, I regret to say, a willingness upon the par' 
of the Democrats of the North to see tliis proviso passed, 
that General Taylor may be compelled to show to tlie 
world, and 'the rest of mankind,' who was cheated in 
the last presidential election — whether it was his friends 
North or South. They know that a fraud was practiced 
upon the one or the other. They know that in the ^oiith, 
General Taylor was represented as all that any one in 
favor of slavery extension could desire — that he was bound 
to southern institutions by two hundred bonds. At the 
North, it was said that he was for confining slavery to its 
present limits. One or the other was cheated. But I sub- 
mit to my northern friends, if the peace and harmony of 
twenty millions of people, and the perpetuity of our Iree 
institutions, is not of more importance than the exposure 
of this bad faith upon the part of an Administration that, 
if let alone, will fall by its own weight.' Tlie public voice 
everywhere indicates its certain and inevitable over- 
throw. 

" In times past our policy sooner or later has prevailed, 
and we should stand firm, however dark thi^ hour, encour- 
aged by former success. We should not be driven from 
our positions beeause our opponents have to come to them 
for safety. 1 might ask them if they are to be driven from 
their firm and stern ojiposition to a United States bank, 
because those who once thought that certain ruin would 
lay waste the land unless such an institution was incor 
porated, have changed their opinions, and stand with us in 
ojjppsition .' Are tliey willing to be driven in opposition 
i to the independent treasury, because those who once op- 
\ posed now support it? Are you to be driven from all the 
I past, now triumphantly indicated, becau -e oppotiition has 
' ceased.' We should stand firm in the support of right, 
truth, the Constitution of our country, no matter who shall 
come to their support, or desert ; stand by them to the last, 
I and if they fall let us perish with them. We should never 
' survive the existence of this Government. 
' " Tiiere is one thing that I v%'ish, in this connection, Mr. 
! Chairman, to say to the gentlemen from the South, and 
the northern Whigs : if the bill for territorial governments, 
silent upon the subject of slavery, sjiall he drfeated, then 
I am for bills with the Wilinot proviso, in order to give 
governments to tlie people in tlie Territories ; and I speak 
for four of my colleagues, assured that they will feel con- 
strained to pursue a like course. And if General Taylor 
shall approve the proviso, then it will have passed ; and it 
is for them to determine what shall or shall not he done, 
I and let the responsibility rest with them." 

I I take this occasion to say, that the sentiment 
last quoted, uttered in a moment of excitement, 
I, upon reflection, repudiate as unjust and iin- 
I proper. I thank the gentleman that he has 
afforded me the opportunity to give this jmblic 
; expression of my disapproval of that statement. 
I I uniformly voted against placing the Wilmot 
j proviso in any territorial bill. I voted against it, 
: liecause I believed it to be unjust to the people of 
I a portion of this Union. 

1 The Clerk then read tlie third interrogatory, 
' as follows: 

i " .^m f right in supposing that his theory is, that the 

1 (/"onstitution of the United States does not carry slavery 

10, and protect it in, tlie 'i'eriitories of the United States? 

j That ill tiie territory acquired from Mexico and France, 

j (including Kansas and Nebraska,) the i\Tissouri restriction 

i was necessary to make the territory free, because slavery 

existed there under France at the time of the acquisition; 

[ hut that the Kans.is and Nebraska bill, vvliieh repeals that 

i lestriction, but neither legislates slavery into those Terri- 

: lories nor excludes it therefrom, in his opinion, leaves 

those Territories without either local or constitutional law 

' protecting slavery ; and that therefore the Kansas and N«- 

! braska bill promotes the formation of slave States in Kan- 

; sas and N.'braska ?'' 

j Mr. RICHARDSON. The Constitution does . 
not, in my opinion, carry tlie institutions of any 
of the States i-nto the Territories; but it afforcra 
the same protection there to the institutions of 



one State as of another. The citizen of Vir- 
ginia is as much entitled, in the common terri- 
tory, to the protection of his property, under the 
% Constitution, as the citizen of IlHnois; but both 
are dcjwndent upon the legislation of the terri- 
torial government for laws to protect thoir prop- 
erty, of whatever kind it may be. Thus, it will 
be seen, that though there may be upon this 
poiiu a difference theoretically — involving ques- 
tions for judicial decision — yet there is none, 
practically, among the friends of non-interven- 
tion by Congress, as the practical result is to 
place the decision of the questions in the hands 
of those who are most deeply interested in its 
solution, namely, the people of the Territory, 
who have made it their home, and whose inter- 
ests are the most deeply involved in the cliarac- 
ter of the institutions under which they are to 
live. If this great principle of non-intorvention 
and self-government is wrong, then, indeed, the 
American Revolution was fought in vain, and it 
is time we cease to venerate the memory of the 
patriotic dead, who purchased with their for- 
tunes and blood the free institutions of the sev- 
eral separate, independent, and coequal States, 
forming the Union under which we have so 
prosperously and luiiiiiily grown to be so great. 

Mr. ZOLLICOFFER. I ask the indulgence 
(if tin; House to state the reasons why I pro- 
jiounded those questions to the gentleman from 
Jllinois. 

Mr. CLINGMAN. I submit this point of 
irder to the gentleman: I would like to liave 
those questions propounded to the different can- 
didates in order — one at a time — before we are 
* troubled or emliarrassed with any other ques- 
tions. I hope all the candidates will answer this 
series first, and before going to new matter. 

Mr. ZOLLICOFFER. Inasmuch as it seems 
to give satisfaction to the gentlemen of the House 
tluit these questions should be put to each of the 
gentlemen who have been voted for for Speaker, 
I certainly have no objection to that course, inas- 
much as the gentleman from Illinois, [Mr. Bich- 
AUDsoN,] to whom I propounded the questions, 
lias already answered. 

Mr. RUST. I want to appeal to the gentle- 
man's sense of fairness, to know whetiier he 
wants to consume the time of the House in rais'ng 
new questions, and thereby prevent the other can- 
didates from answering? 

Mr. ZOLLICOFFER. I had wished to put these 
interrogatories to the gentleman from Illinois, 
[Mr. Richardson,] and then, if gentlemen desire 
it, tlu^y may put the same questions to other 
membeis who have been voted for as Speaker. I 
see no impropriety in that. It seems to be right 
and just that I should be permitted now to state 
tlic reason why I put these interrogatories. 

Mr. CLINGMAN, (interrupting.) I make 
this point of order, and the Clerk must decide it, 
that the gentleman from Tennessee [Mr. Zolli- 
coffer] is not entitled to occupy the floor at this 
tinie. We are now acting under a resolution 
of the House requiring candidates for office — 
meaning, of course, as we all understand, for 
the speakership — to answer interrogatories pro- 
pounded by the gentleman from Tennessee, and 
now answered by the gentleman from Illinois, 
[Mr. Richardson.] I make the point that it is 
not in order for the gentleman to go into debate 



here until we shall have got through v/ith this 
proceeding in which we are engaged; which is, 
that all the candidates for speakership shall an- 
swer these interrogatories. I wish to have this 
point d(-M-ided. 

Mr. WASHBURN, of Maine. I suggest that 
every candidate should answer all the questions 
propounded before they are submitted to another 
I candidate. The gentleman from Illinois [Mr. 
!i Richardson] has answered only a portion of the 
j interrogatories put to him; and 1 therefore suggest 
j that each candidate shall answer all the interrog- 
,i atories. 

,! Mr. ZOLLICOFFER. Am I entitled, Mr. 
1 Clerk, to make this sinole remark? 
J Mr. CLINGMAN. ^I oliject, sir, to all debate 
I until the Clerk shall have decided the point of 
I order raised. 

[i IVIr. RICHARDSON, [to Mr. Washburn, of 
I [Maine.] I would state to the gentleman from 
;: Maine that I have answered all the questions 
' submitted to me. , 

Ji Mr. WASHBURN. I understand that the 
I gentleman from Tennessee [Mr. Zollicoffer] 
( directly submitted this question to the gentleman 

from Illinois [Loud cries of " Order ! order !"] 

Mr. MeMULLIN. I submit that the gentle- 
man from Maine [Mr. Washburn] is not in 
order. 

The CLERK. The Clerk must state that the 
gentleman from Maine is not in order. 

Mr. GREENWOOD.- I suggest that the in- 
terrogatories which have just ijeen answered by 
the gentleman from Illinois [Mr. Richardson] 
be read to the gentleman from P(;nnsylvania, [Mr. 
Fuller,] and answered by him before we proceed- 
to any other business. 

A Member suggested the name of Mr. Banks. 
Mr. GREENWOOD. Yes; let them first be 
read, and submitted to the gentleman from Mas- 
sachusetts, [Mr. Banks.] 

Mr. ZOLLICOFFER. I ask, Mr. Clerk, 
whether or not I am entitled to the floor? 

The CLERK. The Clerk would state to the 
gentleman from Tennessee [Mr. Zollicoffer] 
and to the House, that he conceives the gentle- 
man from Tennessee to be in order, as he is pro- 
posing to speak to what is substantially a new 
proposition; and therefore, in the opinion of the 
Clerk, he has a right to the floor. But the Clerk 
would remind the gentleman that his time has 
very nearly expired. 

Mr. ZOLLICOFFER. Then I trust that gen- 
tlemen will not interrupt me. I am wifling to 
content myself with merely sending to the Clerk's 
desk, and having read, the record of the gentle- 
man from Illinois [Mr. Richardson] on which 
the questions I propounded to him were predi- 
cated. 

A Member. Have it printed in your speech.. 
Mr. CRAIGE. I object to any printed speech, 
Mr. CLINGMAN. I renew my objection. I 
am perfectly willing that the gentleman from Ten- 
nessee may make his commentaries on the speech 
of the gentleman from Illinois, after all the other 
candidates have answered the interrogatories, but 
not till then. 

The CLERK. The Clerk will submit the 
question to the House. 

Mr. ORR. I submit to the gentleman from 
Tennessee to decline for the present making any 



6 



commentary on the answers of the gentleman 
from Illinois, until the other candidates for the 
Bneakership liave answered them also. 

Mr. WASHBURN, of Maine. I wish to say 
this [Loud cries of " Order ! "] 

Mr. ZOLLICOFFER. 1 am a very deferen- 
tial man, Mr. Cl<rk: I am disposed to be courte- 
ous, fair, and entirely satisfactory to the House. 
I am, therefore, willing to defer for the present 
what I wished to say, if gentlemen so wish. 
[Cries of " That is right!"] I would state, for 
the further satisfaction of the House, that I was 
merely desirous of showing that I had put no idle 
interrogatory 

Mr. CLINGMAN, (interrupting.) I desire 
the Clerk to decide the point of order submitted 
by me. 

The CLERK. The Clerk will submit the 
question to the House. 

Mr. CLIIVGMAN. Then I object to the gen- 
tleman from Tennessee proceeding until the point 
of order shall have been decided. 

Mr. ZOLLICOFFER, [to Mr. Clingman.] 
The Clerk has decided the point of order, sir. 

Mr. CLINGMAN. No, sir, he has not. 

The CLERK. The gentleman from North 
Carolina [Mr. Clingman] raises a new point of 
order, which the Clerk submits to the House. 
The question is, whether the gentleman from 
Tennessee is in order in addressing the House? 

Mr. ZOLLICOFFEfl, (interrupting.) I shall 
content myself by merely stating the chapter and 
page of the Appendix to the Congressiorial Globe 
from which 

Mr. CLINGMAN. I object, Mr. Clerk, to the 
gentleman from Tennessee proceeding in this way 
until the point of order shall have been decided. 

Mr. ZOLLICOFFER. I repeat that I 

The CLERK. The gentleman from Tennes- 
see will come to order. [Loud cries of " Order ! " 
confusion throughout the 



I wish to have this ques- 



" Order!" and much 
Hall.] 

Mr. CLINGJIAN. 
tion decided. 

The CLERK. The Clerk submits the question 
to the House whether the gentleman from Ten- 
nessee is in order.' 

The question was taken. 

The CLERK. The Clerk thinks that the ayes 
have it. • 

Several Members. Tellers on that question. 

Mr. WASHBURNE, of Illinois. Will the 
Clerk please state the question that the House is 
to decide.' There is so much confusion in the 
Hall that we over here cannot understand the 
question. 

The CLERK. The question is, whether the 
gentleman from Tennessee [Mr.ZoLLicoFFER] is 
m order. 

Mr. STEPHENS. 1 desire, before 1 vote, to 
know what the question is before the House, on 
which the gentleman from Tennessee claims the 
floor .'- 

The CLERK. The propositions put by the 

fentleman from Tennessee to the gentleman from 
Uinois arc now before the House. 

Mr. STEPHENS. I do not understand that 
there is any question pending: before the House. 
Mr. CLINGMAN. Certainly not. 
Mr. STEPHENS. As I understand the ques- 
tion, the gi'iitleinan from 'I'ennessce, availing 



himself yesterday of the courtesy of the Houfse, 
made a ten-miimte speech, and propounded cer- 
tain questions to the gentleman from Illinois. The 
gentleman from Illinois, this morning, by unani- 
mous courtesy of the House, made responses t(^ 
those questions. I do not understand that there 
is now any pending question before the House, 
on which any gentleman can have the floor. 

A Member. There is a question of order. 

Mr. HUMPHREY MARSHALL. I under- 
stood that in the answers to the interrogatories 
made by the gentleman from Illinois, ho had 
made some remarks which called out the gentle- 
man from Tennessee in a personal explanation of 
his course 

Mr. McMULLIN, (interrupting.) The gen- 
tleman from Tennessee did not put it on that 
ground. 

Several Members. Yes, he did. 

Mr. MARSHALL. I think he did put it on 
that ground. 

Mr. CLINGMAN, (interrupting.) As I un- 
derstand that the gentleman from Tennessee is 
willing to postpone his question until all the can- 
didates have answered the interrogatories, a9 
answered by the gentleman from Illinois, 1 with- 
draw my point of order. That is all that I want. 

The CLERK. The gentleman from North 
Carolina [Mr. Clingman] withdraws his point 
of order; but the Clerk would remind the gentle- 
man from Tennessee, and the House, that an- 
other point of ord(^r has hovn raisid 

Mr. ZOLLICOFFER, (interrupting.) Well, 
sir, when interrupted by the gentleman from 
North Carolina, [Mr. Clingman,] I had proposed 
to make no running commentary on the answers 
of the gentleman from Illinois. I ask no advant- 
age. 1 am willing to postpone my commentaries 
till another time. But I desire merely to shovr 
that the interrogatories which I propounded to 
the gentleman from Illinois were not idle or im- 
pertinent, but were based upon the record. I now 
merely want to cite that record, and I was in the 
act of doing so when the gentleman from North 
Carolina interrupted me. It is to be found in the 
Appendix to the Congressional Globe for 1854. 
[Loud cries of " Read it!"] 

Mr. CLINGMAN. I object to the gentleman 
making any citation. 

Mr. COBB, of Alabama. Oh, let it go out. 
Who's afraid of it? [Laughter.] 

Mr. RICHARDSON, [to Mr. Zoi.licoffer.] 
That is the same speech that I read from. 

Mr. ZOLLICOFFER. Now I am willing that 
the same questions as answered by the gentleman 
from Illinois, shall be propounded to the other 
gentlemen v/ho are candidates for the speakership 

The CLERK, [to Mr. Stephens.] Does the 
gentleman from Georgia insist on his point of 
order ? 

Mr. STEPHENS. I do. 

The CLERK. The gentleman from Georgia 
[Mr. Stephens] raises the question that there is 
no question before the House. It would be wellj 
therefore, before the proceedings go any further, 
that the series of questions should be formally 
ordered to be put to th(; other gcntli-men. 

Mr. STEPHENS. 1 insist upon my point of 
order. Call the roll, and if gentlemen wish to 
speak, they can do so by the courtesy of the 
House. 



Mr. BOYCE. I move that we now hear the 
•ther candidates. ' 

Mr. MILLSON. If necessary to bring the 
matter regularly before the House, I will move 
to amend the ten-minute rule, by striking out ten 
and substituting twelve minutes. j 

The CLERK. Such a motion would bring the i 
matter properly before the House. i 

Mr. JONES, cf Tennessee. I do not under- ; 
stand the resolution adopted yesterday by this 
House as being an order that each candidate for 
the speakership shall answer the interrogatories. 
If the other candidates of the respective parties 
ai-e in the House, and desire or are willing to 
answer, I presume the House will hear them. , 
But if they are unwilling to answer, it is not 
within the province of the House to call on them 
for a response. I understand that the two other 
candidates for Speaker— the Know Nothing or 
American candidate, and the Republican candi- 
date — were both furnished with copies of the in- 
terrogatories propounded by the gentleman from 
Tennessee [iVIr. Zollicoffer] to. the gentleman 
from Illinois, [Mr. RiciiAnnsoN.] Now, if they 
are ready to respond, I jiresume the House will 
hear them ; but if they prefer not to answer, there 
is no power here to coerce them. 

Mr. BARKSDALE. I move now that the 
questions propounded by the gentleman from 
South Carolina, [Mr. Eoyce,] sometime since, be 
produced, and that the gentleman from Massa- 
chusetts [Mr. Banks] be requested to answer 
them. 

Several Members. Oh, no ! and cries of "Or- 
der!" 

Mr. BARKSDALE. Well, I move that he 
be invited to answer. [Criesof dissent, and con- 
fusion.] 

Mr. WASHBURN, of Maine. I would sug- 

fest that none of the other candidates answer, 
t is not fair to call upon them to answer until 
the gentleman from Illinois has answered all the 
questions which have been propounded to him. 
The gentleman from Ohio [Mr. Bingham] has 
propounded several questions which he has not 
answered. [Cries of '"Or^Jer !"] 

Mr. LETCHER. 1 am very glad the gentle- 
man from Maine has become in favor of candi- 
dates answering questions. I thought, yester- 
day, he was opposed to all answering. [Cries 
of " Order!" and confusion.] 

Mr. BARKSDALE. I am entitled to the 
floor. 

The CLERK. It is impossible to proceed, un- 
less gentlemen take their seats and preserve or- 
der. 

Mr. PvlcMULLIN I am entitled to the floor. 
[Cries of " Order!" and confusion.] 

The CLERK. The Clerk again appeals to 

fentlemcn to take their seats and preserve order, 
le did recognize the gentleman from Virginia, 
[Mr. McMuLLiN,] supposing the gentleman from 
Mississippi had taken his seat. 

Mr. BARKSDALE. No, sir; I did not yield 
the floor. 

Mr. McMULLIN. I understood the gentle- 
man from Mississippi to take his seat, and I rose 
and addressed the Clerk, and was recognized by 
him. I insist that I am entitled to the floor. 

Mr. BANKS rose. 

Mr. KEITT. I would suggest to the gentle- 



man from Virginia, and the gentleman from Mis- 
sissippi, that both of them yield the floor, and 
allow the gentleman from Massachusetts [Mr. 
Banks] to speak. I understand he is ready t« 
respond to the interrogatories put by the gentk- 
man from Tennessee, [Mr. Zollicoffer.] 

Mr. McMULLIN. I think I am clearly en- 
titled to the floor, but I will give way in favor of 
the gentleman from Massachusetts, if he desire* 
to address the House. 

Mr. BANKS. I do not wish to take the floor 
from the gentleman from Virginia, or any one, 
for that purpose. 

Mr. iVlcMULLIN. Iimderstand that the same 
questions that have been answered by the gen- 
tleman from Illinois have been furnished to the 
gentleman from Massachusetts, and also to the 
gentleman from Pennsylvania; and that those gen- 
tlemen are ready to answer. I yield the floor for 
that purpose. 

Mr. BANKS. Mr. Clerk, I voted for the res- 
olution presented by the honorable gentlema» 
from Tennessee [Mr. Zollicoffer] yesterday 
with pleasure. It embodies a principle which I 
think sound. As understood by me, when re- 
ported at the Clerk's desk, "it was nothing mora 
nor less than simply this: that any gentleman 
who votes for a candidate for any oflice oaglit t* 
know the o]»inions of that candidate. I reogniza 
the right of every gentleman in this House wli« 
has been voting for Speaker during this protracted 
contest, to ascertain the opinions of any man for 
whom he casts his vote. Sir, I should claim it 
as my right to know the opinions of my candi 
date to such an extent as should be satisfactory 
to myself, at least. 

But, sir, as a member of the House, I have 
other rights. I offer myself as a candidate for n» 
office; f solicit no man's suffrage; and I am not, 
therefore, called upon as a candidate to solve suck 
difficulties as gentlemen supporting other per- 
sons may find in the existing condition of pubBa 
aff"airs. Those who have honored me by their 
confidence and votes are themselves responsible 
for the course they have chosen, and, I doubt 
not, they are able to meet that responsibility. It 
is not for me to provide for their defense. I cam 
only say, as Ol;hello said of his wife, they " had 
eyes, and chose me." 

I have convictions — convictions of duty, con- 
victions of principle — upon the great matters im 
which the country is interested; and, as a mem- 
ber of the House, representing a district in the 
Commonwealth of Massachusetts, I have no hesi- 
tation in responding to any of the inquiries pro- 
pounded by the honorable gentleman from Ten- 
nessee to the honorable gentleman from Illinois. 
I ask the Clerk to read the first quesion. 

The Clerk read as follows: 

" Am I right in supposing that the gontlemaB from TIB- 
nois regardsthe Kansas-Nebraska bill as promotive of th« 
foiTiiation of free States in the Territories of Kansas and 
Nebraska?" 

Mr. BANKS. It will be understood, of course, 
that the phraseology of .this inquiry applies rather 
to the gentleman from Illinois [Mr. Richard- 
son] than to myself. I answer, distinctly, that 
I do not regard the Kansas-Nebraska bill as pro- 
motive of the formation of free States, inasmuck 
as it repeals the prohibition of the institution of 
slavery over the section of country to which that 



8 



statute iipplies. I think it does not ti>nd to tiie 
formation of free States. Tliat is my answer. 

The Clerk read as follows: 

" Am I riglif in supposinsr lie advocates tlie constitu'ion- 
aJity of tlie Wilmot pioviio; tlial in 1853 lie opposed its 
applieation to the teiritories ae(iiiired finm Mexieo, only 
upon the ground that it was unneeessary, inasmuch as the 
Mexican local laws in those territories already abolished 
slavery— which ou;;lit to be s'.ifficient lor all Free-Soil 
men; and rliat lie committed himself to the position, that 
if territorial bills (silent upon the subject of slavery, and 
leaving tlie Mexican law to operate) were defeated, be 
would vote for bills with the Wilmot proviso in them?" 

Mr. RANKS. I could give a s^eneral answer 
in the affirmative to that interrogatory. I believe 
in the constitutionality of that act which is known 
and generolly understood as the Wilmot proviso. 
I believe that it is within the power of Congress 
toproliibit the institution of slavery in aTerritory 
belonging to the United States. Whether I would 
advocate the passage of such an act in regard* to 
a territory where it was clearly uimecessary, 
where by local, preexisting laws it had been 
prohibited, or, in other words, whether 1 would 
advocate a double inhibition, I have only to say, 
that, if a doubt existed as to its exclusion by valid 
municipal law, I should sustain an act which em- 
bodied the prohibition known as the Wilmot or 
Jeffi'rson proviso. In regard to the measures of 
1850, I can only say, that, being called upon here 
«• elsewhere,! should have voted for the prohib- 
ition in the territories covered by those measures, 
if I had entertained a doubt as to the exclusion 
•^ slavery by existing municipal law. That is 
ray answer. 

The Clerk read as follows: 

"Am I right in supposing that his theory is, that the Con- 
••titution of the United States does not carrv slavery to, 
and protect it in, the Territories of the United States?" 

Mr. BANKS. I do not believe that the Consti- 
tution of-the United States carries the institution 
of slavery to the Territories of the United States. 
My understanding is based on the declaration of 
Mr. Webster, that even the Constitution of the 
United States itself does not go to tin?' Territories 
until it is carried there by an act of Congress. 
Standing on the principle of the English law 
governing the same interests, 1 do not believe 
that the Constitution of the United States carries 
to any Territory of the United States any right 
to hold slaves there. 

In order, sir, that my answer should be full 
and satisfactory, I ought, perhaps, to put the 
negative of the proposition of the distinguished 
gentleman who leads the Government party on 
tliis floor, and in this crisis. 1 recognize the right, 
air, to protection of jiroperty on the part of the 
South, as well as on the part of the North, in the 
Territories of the United Slates ; and when I speak 
of property I mean that which is considered 
property by universal law; 1 do not mean that 
which is property only because it is held as such 
under the laws of a particular State, and which 
loses its character of property so soon as it extends 
beyond the limits of that State, except under cer- 
tain reservations covered by the Constitution of 
the United States. When I speak of property, I 
do not refer to that speci'es. I describe that which 
is recognized as property by universal laws of 
men, and not that which is jiroperty only when 
it is made such by local laws of limited sections 
of the country. I have no disposition to disturb 
its existence — no purpose to diminish or increase 



it there. I will acknowledge all its rights there, 
accepting for that purpose the charts established 
by southern statesmen; but I deny that it is such 
property as, independent of local law or congres- 
sional enactment, is protected by the Constitution 
in the Territories of the United Stati'S. 

I have nothing further to say on this very nice 
and delicate question. I believe tluU the Cotistitu- 
lion of the United States was intended to do justice 
to all sections of the country — to the South equally 
with the North. I am for that to-day; and I adopt 
the language of my friend, [Mr. Richardson,] 
who has always treated me with distinguished 
courtesy in all discussions on tliis subject, that 
we should do justice to the South, as well as to 
the North. In no speech or declaration that has 
fallen from my Ups, so far as I can remember it, 
have I ever expn.-sscd a different sentiment; out, 
sir, I cannot shut out from my mciKiry the great 
fact that the Constitution of the United States is 
an instrument of freedom, contemplated as such 
by its framers, and interpreted as such by all men 
of the South and the North until within the last 
few years. It is a chart of freedom, estai)lished 
to secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and 
our posterity, giving li'^erty to the States to do 
what they shall think to be proper within their 
own localities, under such circumstances as to 
them shall seem to be right and just, but claim- 
ing no right and conceding no right to them to 
carry their own peculiar institutions beyond the 
limitations conferred by the doctrine of the sover- 
eignty of States. 

No, sir! Th" Constitution of the United States 
is an instrument, not of immediate, but of ultimate 
and universal freedom. It was so contemplated 
by the great men who framed it; and the world 
has so regarded it. The national flag, that is its 
symbol, that makes the land over which it floats, 
in whatever quarter of the globe, so long ■^ it 
covers an American citizen, American territory, 
is the banner of ultimate and universal liberty — 
its white and red folds symbols of Revolution- 
ary trials, of the crests of victory, and the blood 
of sacrifice. May its starry union forever stand 
as lustrous and imperishable as the golden fires 
of God's firmame-nt!* [Great applause] That is 
my answer to that question. 

The Clerk read as follows: 

" That in the territory aeiniired from Mexico and France 
(including K;insas and Nebraska) the Missouri restriction 
W.1S neccs.~aiy to make the territory free, because slavery 
existed there under Fraiie(! at the time of the acipiisition, 
bultliatthe Kan-as and Neliraska bill, whicli repeals that 
restriction, but neither legi-jates slavery into those Territo- 
ries nor excludes it therefrom, in his 0])inioii, leaves those 
Territories without either local or constitutional law pro- 
feting shivery; and tlial tbei-efore the Kansas and Nebraska 
1)111 piiimoies the foiinalion of slave States in Kansas i,.id 
Nebraska?" 

Mr. BANKS. I did not see that question, 
Mr. Clerk, until it was brought to me by a page 
from the desk. It is but a repetition of the first 
interrogatory, with the addition of a statement of 
fact. In regard to that statement, I will say that 
it is doubted whether the institution of slavery 
existed in- these Territories at the time they 
were acquinnl. Without going into the question 
whether France, by the decree of 1794, abolished 
it there, I will say that, if it were necessary that 
the Congress of the United States should interdict 
it in those Territories in order to make them free, 
1 think that Congress was right in doing it. If it 



9 



were necessary, in order to give to the South the l| the people of the confederated States met, by 
right to carry slavery there, that the interdict of - their representatives in convention, to forni that 
1820 should be removed, I think that the Con- 1] Constitution, slavery existed in all but one of 
gres>s of 1853 was wrong in making that repeal; j the States of the Confederacy. The people, 
and I cannot, sir, but say, with the light that has i| through their representatives, having an existing 
coine to nie uj^on this question, that the interdict \\ and acknowledged right to hold slaves, conceded 
of 1620 forbade and abolished slavery, if it ex-ll this — the right to prohibit importation — after the 
isted there; that the rejieal of that prohibition in ' year 1808. "They made no cession, so far as re- 
1853, inasmuch as it allowed slavery to go there i, garded the existence of domestic slavery. They 
under certain possible circumstances, was an act!; claimed — audit was granted — the right of reclam- 
not promotive of the formation of free States, li ation in case of escape. They claimed — and it 
That, sir, i.s my answer to that question. Ij was granted — the right of representation as an 

Mr. EARKSDALE. I wish to put some inter- '' clement of political power. And I hold, in the 



rogatories to the gentleman from Massachusetts. 
Mr. ORR. I appeal to the gentleman from 
Mississippi to withhold his questions for the pres- 
ent, until the gentleman l>om Pennsylvania has 



absence of express authority, that Congress has 
no constitutional right to legislate ujion the sub- 
ject of slavery. •> [Applause.] I hold that the 
Territories are tli# common property of all the 



answered the questions, and then he can pro- 11 States, and that the people of all the States have 
pound them. |j a common right to enter upon and occupy those 

Mr. BARKSDALE. V/ith the understanding Territories, and they are protected in that occu- 
that these questions are to be asked as soon as the \' pation by the flag of our common country; that 
gentleman from Pennsylvania has answered the iiCongress has no constitutional power either to 
interrogatories of the gentleman from Tennessee, |; legislate slavery into, or exclude it from, a Ter- 
1 yield the floor to the gentleman from Pennsyl- i ritory. Neither has the Territorial Legislature, 
vania, but I give notice that I shall claim it again I: in my judgment, any right to legislate upon that 
when he has done. j. subject, except so far as it may be necessary to 

Mr. FULLER, of Pennsylvania. Mr. Clerk, i^ protect the citizens of the Territory in the enjoy- 
I voted for the resolution olfered by the gentle- 1 1 ment of their property, and that in pursuance of 
man from Tennessee [Mr. Zollicoffeu] ycster-iiits organic law, as established by congressional 
day, because I cordially approve of the principle I : legislation. When the citizens of the Territory 
embodied in that resolution. Early in the ses-j;shull apply for admission into the Union, they 
sion I f( It it a duty, in justice to myself and to ' may determine for themselves the character of 
those with whom I had been acting, to declare the i; their institutions, (by their State constitution;) 
opinions I entertained and the course of action I i; and it is their right then to declare whether they 
should pursue upon certain questions of public jj will tolerate slavery or not, and, thus faii-ly de- 
policy. I desire to say now, sir, what I believe |i ciding for themselves, should be admitted into 
IS known to the majority — if not to all — of those ij the Union as States without reference to the sub- 
who have honored me with their confidence, that .j ject of slavery. The Constitution was formed by 
1 have been ready at an^ and all times to with-'^ the people of the States for purposes of mutual 
draw my name from this protracted canvass. I 'i advantage and protection. The States are sover- 
have felt unwilling to stand, or to appear to stand, \\ eignties, limited only so far as they have surrcn- 
in the way of any fair organization of this body. I dered their powers to the General .Government. 

In answer to the specific interrogatories here I The General Government, thtis created and lim- 
presented, 1 say that I do not regard tlie Kansas I ited, acts with certain positive, defined, and clearly 
and Nebraska bill as promotive of the formation : ascertained powers. Its legislation and adminis- 
of free States; and I will further say, sir, that I tration should be controlled by the Constitution; 
■Jo not believe that it is promotive of the form-! and it cannot justly employ its powers thus 
ation of slave States. [Cries of " Good!"] The delegated to impair or destroy any existing or 
second interrogatory relates to the constitution- !| vested rights belonging to the people of any of 
ality of the Wilmot proviso. I was not a mem- '} the States. 

ber of the Congress of 1850, and have never been ']\ Mr. HUMPHREY MARSHALL suggested 
called upon to affirm or deny the constitutionality I that the gentleman from INew .TtM'sey had been 
of the Wilmot proviso. i| voted for, and that he, too, should be heard upon 

I have never assumed the position, that " if '! these interrogatories. [Laughter. Cries of " Call 
territorial bills (silent upon the subject of slavery, ' I the roll!" and "Penxington!" in the midst of 
and leaving the Mexican laws to operate) were ^ much confusion ] 

dofeated, he [I] would vote for a bill with the'' Mr. BARKSDALE obtained the floor at the 
Wilmot proviso in it." That question relates to '■ moment Mr. Pexxingtok' addressed the Chair. 



the legislative action of the distinguished gen- 
tleman from Illinois, [Mr. Richardson-.] My 
f'olitical existence commenced since that flood. 
Laughter.] 1 was not a member of that Con- 
gress, and having never taken any public posi- 
tion upon that subject heretofore, I am willing, 
in all frankness and candor, to do so now; and 



The CLERK. Will the geiulmian from Mis- 
rissippi yield to the gentleman from New Jer- 
sey? 

Mr. BARKSDALE. I yield to Mr. Pexximg- 

TOX. 

Mr. PENNINGTON. Mr. Clerk, my friend 
from Kentucky [Mr. Marshall] takes me en- 
I do so with great deference and respect for i' tirely by surprise. I certainly could have had 
those distinguished men who, in times past, have I] no expectation, when I came to the Hall to-day, 
entertained and expressed different opinions. ]; that any gentleman would think of calling for 
Public history informs us that slavery existed be- ji a response to the interrogatories propounded 
fore the Constitution, and, in my judgment, now ji yesterday by the honorable gentleman from Ten- 
sxists independent of the Constitution. When 1) nessee [Mr. Zollicoffer] from a candidate 3» 



10 



«l)sciire and unpromising as mysrlf. [Laughter.] 
Why, sir, hr slioukl recollect thai I am whuUy 
out "of the triangle — this political pons avinonnii, 
over wiiich the very ingenious and accommodat- 
, iiig body of gentlemen around me, with the aid 
of the liiost skillful of engineers, have been fruit- 
lessly struggling to (;ffect a safe passage for the 
last five weeks. [Bursts of laughter.] I thought 
I could discover in tlx; merry twinkle of my 
friend's rye, as he called for my response, yie 
Uriumphani anticipation of a ca])ital joke at my 
expense; but 1 am not to be caught so easily, I 
assurt! him. If, indeed, he coulil luiveeutra|>ped 
me into a serious exposition of my political prin- 
ciples, for this occa.sion, with no better show of 
success than my Htile band of six or seven, he 
might well have boasted of *he best joke of the 
.<jea2on. [Renewed laughter.] It was the great 
Napoleon, I believe, who said, " there is but one 
step from the sublime to the ridiculous." With i 
a Uvely disposition to exttiid every reasonable ii 
accommodation to my frii nd, 1 must beg leave to !1 
decline most respecttuUy to take that particular ; 
Step just now. [Laughter.] i 

Besides, sir, I have not been served with the i 
interrogatories! [Laugliter.] I believe it was i 
understood yesterday tliat the candidates who ; 
were expected to answer were to be served with 
copies of the catechism; and it would seem that 
all the triangular candidates have been duly served, 
and have tluis liad ample opportunity to prepare 
their responses, v.hile no such respect has been 11 
paid to your humble servant. [Laugliter.] I must ij 
e*iter my solemn protest against being taken at | 
such disadvantage, and under such circumstances, j! 
I appeal to every high-minded gentleman to say 
whether I am not bound by a proper self-respect 
to assume a dignified reserve? 

But to be serious, Mr. Clerk, I propose to avail 
myself of this occasion to say to the House and 
the country what 1 should liave been glad to liave 
»aid long ago, if a fit opportunity had been pre- 
sented to do so, in explanation of the part wliic^h 
1 have borne in this contest. The position which 
I have been made to occupy has been, to me, for 
some time past, extremely irksome, and, in some 
degree, involuntary. Though apparently a can- 
didate, it is well known to my more intimate 
friends, and to many, if not most, of the mem- 
bers of the House, tiiat I am not such in the 
proper sense of that term. I have had, from the 
first, no aspiration for the oflice of Speaker; but, 
on the contrary, have shrunk, with unfeigned 
sclf-di.strust, from the uilficulties and responsi- 
bilities* of the position. At the commencement 
of the session, in vi<;w of the peculiar elements 
constituting the present Hou.se, since so clearly 
dcvelojjed, [ yielded a ri.luctant consent to the use 
of my name in this connection upon the urgent 
solicitations of friends, both h<!re and elsewhere, 
in whose judgment and disinterested patriotism 
I have reason to confide', witli no purpose, either 
on their part or on mine, other than to facilitate 
the organization. I assert no claim to such an 
elevation. 1 have solicited no support. I have 
no desire to obstruct, nor will I for a moment 
allow myself to stand in the way of, an adjust- 
ment of the difficulties which surround us. 1 feel 
sure that evi^ry giMitlemaii here will do me the 
justice to say, whatever injurious insinuations to 
the contrary may have found their way into the 



public prints, that I am in no measure, beyond 
any other member of this i)ody, responsible for 
that delay in our action whicli has excited the 
just indignation and disgust of the country. I 
am ready to cooperate in any eftort that may 
promise to relieve us from our embarrassment, 
riie public business issuiTerlngfrom the obstinate 
pursuit, on all sides, of a contest which as yc^t 
liolds no promise of victory to either, but only 
continued disadvantage to the public interests. 

Sir, I am heartily tired of this fruitless stiiig- 
glc; and attaching less consequence to the choic« 
which we shall make than many of tho.se around 
me, 1 am ]irepared, after so mmh delay and dif- 
ficulty, to cast my vote fur any gentleman, on 
any sitle of this House, whose election may b« 
effected by such aid. From the first moment of 
the session I have been anxious for the organ- 
ization. 1 have not been, by any means, f)artic- 
ular in my clioicc among the candidates in oppo- 
sition to the Administration. On the first three 
trials I voted successively for the gentleman from 
Ohio, Pennsylvania, and JVIassacliusetts, [Messrs. 
Campdull, Fuller, and Danks,] indiiating, at 
the outset, my willingness to contributi; to the 
election of either of tliose gentlemen, llie gen- 
tleman from Ohio [Mr. Campbell] knows — for 
he had the amplest assurances to that effect — lliat 
my vote and those of my colleagues were at his 
command at nny moment when they would have 
secured his election, up to the time tif his with- 
drawal from the contt-st. He asked no compli- 
mentary votes, and was satisfied to wait for ours 
till they could render him a more substantial ser- 
vice. I deem this a proper occasion to say, not 
only that he was my first choice, but that I was, 
and still am, of opinion that he was eminently 
entitled to this honor by the distinguished ability 
and unwavering fidelity with which he had served 
his party and his country. 

After his withdrawal, (an act as graceful as it 
was honorabli; and self-sacrificing,) I declined 
the offer of a large body of friends to jiress iny 
name upon the attention of the House. I gave 
way to the geniliman from Massachusetts, [Mr. 
Banks,] and, at the first moment when it seemed 
practicable to elect him, my vote and those of 
my colleagues were cast in his support; and from 
that moment to this we have ever been ready to 
contribute to that result. It is true that the gen- 
tleman from Massachusetts was, for many rea- 
sons, unacceptable to us, and that much has been 
said and done in the progress of this contest, on 
the part of his friends, (for which, however, we 
do npt hold him responsible,) calculated to alien- 
ate us from Jiis sup|)ort. It is true that we have 
not concurred with our judgments, though we 
have by our votes, in the pertinacious effort 
which has been made to elect that gentleman; 
nor have we been willing to take the gentleman 
from Illinois [Mr. Richardsox] as the only 
alternative to the gentleman from Massachu- 
setts — a line of policy which has been urged 
upon the Opposition in this body with a dogma- 
tism only erpialed by its absurdity, and the ma- 
lign spirit which dictates it. The rule of conduct 
adopted, in this respect, by my colleagues and 
myself was adopted also by all who were origin- 
ally my friends, and we have been found united 
for more than a month, contrary to our convie- 
tiona of sound policy, in an eftort, as yet un- 



11 



;^vailiiis: and inauspicious, to elect the gentleman 
from Massacluiselts. 

In the moan tinn', while my name has remained 
in nomiiiaiion, tlif votes of six gentlemen, not 
originally my frimids, and having now, as I pre- 
sum(^ no special preference for me, but unwilling 
to vote for the gentleman from Massachusetts 
for rc^asons satisfactory to themselves, upon their 
own n;presentative responsibility, have been con- 
•entrated upon me in good faith; and it seems to 
be Will understood thai no one of these gentlemen 
can he brought to the aid of the gentleman from 
Massachusetts, though I should peremptorily 
decline their support. 

Under this state of facts, it is suggested that I 
should deelin(>; and telegraphic dispatches have 
been transmitted in eveiy direction to create a 
public impression that I am an obstacle to the 
organization, and, by thus placing me in a false 
position, to constrain me to a course of action 
which does not conmiend itself to my convic- 
tions of duty or honor, with a design, as it seems 
to me, not so much to promote the election of 
the gentleman from Massachusetts as to embar- 
rass those who have thus honored me, and, in my 
hame, held out to the friends of that gentleman 
die olive branch of conciliation and peace. 

Sir, I need no suggestion from any quarter to 
press on me considerations of public duty or 
personal interest in relation to this or any other' 
subj(;ct. I have not been quite so passive a spec- 
tator of this contest as to have been inattentive 
to such considerations. T need no monitor to 
remind me of my duly or my interests; least of 
&il, such a monitoras has set himself up to instruct 
the members ;,of this f louse in the line of their 
duty, and to hold it in awe by the lash of a pow- 
erful press. I am the keeper of my own honor, 
and I shall judge for myself, fearless of open 
denunciations or covert insinuations, come from 
what quarter they may, what my obligations are 
to mys'll) to niy constituents, and toiuy country, i 
And I have now to say, once for all, that when- 
ever it shall appear to me that the continuance of 
my name in nomination shall have even a tendency [ 
to delay the organization, 1 shall without a mo- 
ment's hesitation, ask my colleague who placed 
it there to withdraw it. It will cmi me no sacri- 1 
lice to do so ; for, if I liad ever indui/ed any desire 
for success, I have long ceased to look upon it as 
pi-obable,or even practicable. Till then I shall 
continue to occupy the position which I have 
maintained hitherto, from the ijeginning of the 
contest. I shall, in that event, be enabled to pre- 
sent to those gentlt'inen who have thus concen- 
ti-atr'd thinr votes upon me, a reason for declining 
their support, the force of which, I doubt not, 
they will be among the first to appreciate. In the ] 
absence of such a reason, I should be guilty of i 
a gross dereliction of honor and good faith, 
and unworthy tlie respect of my peers in this 
body, if I were thus contemptuously to shake 
the dust of my feet in the faces of those gentle- 
men. It has been intimated that I might purchase 
position in this House and before the country by 
withdrawing my name from the contest. Sir, I 
aak no position, in the House or elsewhere, to 
which I am not justly entitled. I wish to earn 
for myself no faciiiious importance; least of all, 
to do so at the expense of my own self-respect, 
and the sacrifice of my own honor. j 



Now, sir, I pass to the matter of the interroga- 
tories. I have not read them. I have heard them 
read but indistinctly at the Clerk's tai)le. They 
involve, if I correctly understand their general 
tenor, questions of grave importance, demanding 
for a response deliberate consideration. Of coarse 
I could not bo expected now to respond to them; 
and I am free to say that, had I examined them, I 
could not, under present circumstances, be in- 
Huced to trouble the House with any reply. It 
will be time enough for me seriously to consider 
the propriety of answering these, or any other 
interrogatories, when there shall appear to be a 
more general purpose seriously entertained to use 
my name in this contest. 

Sir, I am no party to the contract implied by 
the resolution of the gentleman from Tennessee, 
and the vote which has been given in support of 
it. I voted to lay the resolution on the table, and, 
that failing, I voted squarely against its adoption. 
I am, therefore, in no measure responsiijle forits 
passage, nor in any degree committed to the line 
of conduct which 'it indicates. I agree most fully 
to the general principle affirmed by the resolutioii; 
but, as I view it, that principle has no applica- 
bility to the business now before the House. The 
Speaker of this body is selected to preside over 
its delilxrations, to conduct its proceedings, and 
to preserve order and decorum — functions which 
in no respect involve any political principle. They 
involve the principles of personal integrity, im- 
partiality, and capacity, and, on these points, I 
have^only to say, that, if the general tenor of my 
life and conversation, open to all men, and my 
intercourse with the tnembers of this House, do 
not afl'ord sufficient guarantees in these respects, 
they are as free to reject as they are to elect. 

It may be said, Mr. Clerk, that the Speaker has 
in his power the appointment of the committees 
of the House. This may or may not be so. 
There is no existing law, rule, or resolution, 
which vests this authority in that officer. When 
we shall have elevated to the chair any honorable 
member of this body to preside over its delibera- 
tions — when we shall have committed to such 
member the [ireservation of order and decorum, 
the proper time will have arrived to determine 
whether his character and principles be such as 
to justify us in intrusting to hiin so important and 
responsible a power. 

But, sir, if it were true, that by any existir^ 
regulation the Speaker would ex officio possess 
the power to appoint the committees, or it be con- 
templated, according to established usa2:e, to vest 
that power in him, I do not see how the principle 
enunciated by the resolution could have any 
proper relation to the selection of that officer. 
The duty of the Speaker, in the appointment of 
committees^ is fixed by a well-defined, though 
too often disregarded, principle of parliamentary 
law. He would be bound by that principle, and 
ought, and doubtless would be required, under 
the pain of removal, whatever might be his indi- 
vidual opinions or personal preferences, to con- 
stitute the standing committees upon the various 
branches of tin; public service in conformity fco 
the ascertained sentiments of a majority of the 
House. It is a rule of parliamentary law, ((lually 
well defined — though this, too, has' been too fre- 
quently disregarded — that select or special com- 
mittees are to be constituted of a majority at 



12 



least of the friends of the measure referred to 
them, however odious it may be to the House 
or to its presiding officer. I confess, therefore, 
that w'nh these views I cannot see the necessity 
or propriety of instituting an inquisition into 
the pecuhar political opinions of candidates, es- 
peciiillv with such extreme nicety as character- 
izes tHe points made by the interrogatories of 
the gentleman from Tennessee. It seems to me 
thatenougii ought to be known of any gentle- 
man, fit for such a position, without subjecting 
him to the humiliation of submitting himself to 
be questioned and cross-questioned in this Hall 
as to all the minute points and jjliases of his 

f)olitical principlis, and that, too, with all the 
ittle chicanery of the ])ar-room and tiie hustings. 
For myself, sir, I am satisfied to be judged, and 
to stand or fall, by my past political life, and the 
record which I have made in the public service; 
to which 1 beg leave to refer the inquisitive. 

I will make no pledge, subject myself to no 
test, submit to no condition or humiliation to 
insure success. 

tAnd now, sir, not desiring further to occupy 
ic attention of the House, I ha%^e only to say 
again that, in my position and with my views, I 
most respectfully decline to be put through the 
catechism. 

In conclusion, Mr. Clerk, I may illustrate my 
position by the point of an anecdote of boyhood < 
days. It is now Saturday afternoon, and there 
are doubtless around me many who, with me, will 
as.'iociate, while life lasts, with that tiuKV vivid 
recollections of the delectable exercises in the 
smaller and larger catechism wherewith we were i 
initiated into the rudiments of the AVefrminster j 
Confession of Faith. I remember on one of these { 
occasions to have been seatid by a waggish 
youngst(;r, who, upon being called up and asked i 
what progress Ik; had made in his catechism,; 
very naivi ly replied, that he had got beyond j 
" effectual calling." [R,oars of laughter.] | 

Mr. BAIIKSDALE. The interrogatories, Mr. 
Clerk, wliiih I propose to put to the gentleman 
from Massachusetts, [Mr. Banks.] 1 inti'iid for all 
the gentlemen who are candidates for the speak- 
ership; and, in order that the House and the 
gentlemen to whom they are propounded may 
understand theiii,! will now read them: 

Are you now a member of the American or 
Know iNoihing party .' 

Are you in favor of abolishing slfivery in the 
District of Columbia, the United States forts, 
dock-yards, &c. ? 

Do you believe in the equality of the white and 
black races in the United States; and do you wish 
to promote that equality by legislation ? 

Are you in favor of the entire exclusion of 
df>pted citizens and Roman Catlioli(vs frfini ofIi('e? 

Do y(ni favor the same modification— and this 

?[uestion 1 intend particularly for the gentleman 
rom Massachusetts, [Mr. Banks]— of the tariff 
now which you did at the lastsession ofCongress? 

Mr. BI.\'GHAA1 . I insist that, before any more 
interrogatories are put, those whiidi 1 have pro- 
pounded be answered. 

The CLEIUv. Does the gentleman from Mis- 
sissippi withdraw his interrogatories for the pres- 
ent.' 

Mr. BARKSDALE. No, sir. 

Mr. RICHARDSON took the floor. 



The CLERK. Does the gentleman from Mis- 
sissippi yield to the gentleman from Illinois.' 
Mr. BARKSDALE. I do, sir. 
Mr. RICHARDSON. I wish to answer the 
questions propoftnded. 

Mr. KENNETT, (interrupting.) Task whethci 
it is in order to put one or two more interroga- 
tories in addition to those projioundcd liy the 
gentleman from Mississippi.' I should like to 
know of each candidate for the speakership, in- 
cluding my friend from New Jersey, [Mr. Pen- 
nington,] whether he believes in a future state 
or not.' [Laughter.] And then, provided he 
answers that question affirmatively, I desire to 
know whether he believes it will be a free or a slave 
state ? [Roars of laughter.] 

Mr. BARKSDALE. I would say to the gen- 
tleman from Missouri [Mr. Kennett] that, if 
he intends by that interrogatory to cast any re- 
flection upon me, cither directly or indirectly — 
[excitement, and cries of "No! no!"] — 1 hurl it 
back with all the scorn, derision, and contempt 
which its insolence and impudence so justly 
merits. [Loud cries of " Order !" " Order!"] 

Mr. CAMPBELL, of Ohio. I call the gentl«- 
man to order. 

Mr. BARKSDALE. Sir, he has no right to 
call me to order; and I demand by what right he 
calls me to order? [Continued cries of" Order!" 
and much conf'usion in the Hall.] 

Mr. CAMPBELL. I again call the gentleman 
[Mr. Barkkdale] to order. 

Mr. GROW. I move that the House do now 
adjourn. 

"Mr. KENNETT. I have only to remark, Mr. 
Clerk, that the tenor of my questions must have 
becnmi.sunderstoodby theHouse,if it thinks they 
were designed to reflect on the gentleman from 
Mississippi, [Mr. Barksdale.] They were 
intended good-naturedly. And I have to say 
further, tliat no gentleman in this House or out of 
it need expect to intimidate me, or to insult me in 
this manner. I have made all the apology, Mr. 
Clerk, that I intend to make. That apology was 
made to the House. I did not intend my remarks 
to be understood in any but a jocular way; but 
I consider, at the same time , that the remarks made 
by the genth-man [Mr. Barksdale] about Ameri- 
canism" fully justify nie in putting such a query. 
[Cries of "'Good !" " Call the roll !"] 

The CLERK. Does the gentleman from Penn- 
sylvania insist on his motion to adjourn.' 
Mr. GROW. I do, sir. 

Mr. LETCHER. The gentleman from Illinois 
[.Mr. Rkiiauuscn] is on the floor. Let us hear 
what he has to say. 

The Clerk put the question on adjournment, 
and the motion was not agreed to. 

Mr. [{ICri.VRDSON. I have received a copy 
of the inquiries propoundi>d by the gentleman 
from Ohio, [Mr. Bingham.] I'have looked over 
These interrogatories, and it seems to me that 
I have answered them substantially, with the 
exception of the first and fifth. I refer that gen- 
tleman, therefore, to the remarks submitted by 
me this morning, for my answer to his questions, 
with the exception of those I have indicated. 
The first inquiry is: 

" Do you hold tliat tlio Constitution of tin; United States 
extends' to, atid is ol' lull I'oicu williin Uio scvonil Territo- 
ries iliureol ?=' 



*^S$$ 



13 



In reply to this interrogatory I have to say 
tliat I do recognize the Constitution of the United 
States as extending over the Territories, so far 
ns it is applicable to their condition. That is my , 
answer to the first. 

The fifth is in the following language: | 

'■■ Do you hold that, under the Constitution, a person held 
to service or labor within said Territory, escaping; tlierelVom : 
into any State in this Union, can be reclaimed under the i 
fusitive slave law ; or is such person within the extradition [ 
dausc of the second section of the fourth article of the j 
Constitution .'" ' i 

In reply to this I have to say that, by the ex- | 
press terms of the bill organizing the Territories 
of Kansas and Nebraska, and other Territories 
organized subsequent to the passage of the fugi- 
tive slave law, that lav/ goes into operation in , 
those Territories. i 

Now, sir, as to the other interrogatories pro- 1 
pounded by the gentleman from Mississippi, 
[Mr. Barssdai.e,] I have to say that I belong 
to no Know Nothing or American organization. | 
I belong to no secret political organization. i 

I am opposed to the abolition of slavery in the ; 
District of Cokiraliia. I am opposed to interference i 
with it in the dock-yards, or any place else, by 
the Congress of the tJnited States. j 

I believe that the Almighty made the negro in- j 
fcrior to tjie white man. I do not believe you can 
place them upon an equality, unless you bring 
down the white man to his level; and I am op- 
posed to that. 

In reply to th-o facetious inquiries of my friend 
from IMissouri, [Mr. Kcnn'ett,] I h.ave to say j 
I am sometimes afraid that, in that future state ' 
in which I beheve, he, myself, and some of our 
associates here, will not be free. [Laughter.] | 

Mr. KENNETT. I am very glad, Mr. Clerk, | 
tliat the gentleman from Illinois [Mr. Riciiaud- 
son] is getting a little anxious about his condi- ! 
tionj as well as that of other mcmljers of the ! 
House. I think he has great cause. [Laughter.] ' 

Mr. RICHARDSON. I am very anxious, not \ 
0«ily in reference to myself, but in relation to my I 
friend from Missouri. But, sir, I am informed i 
that I omitted one of the questions propounded 
by the g(-ntlcman from Mississippi, [Mr. Barks- [ 
DALE,] in relation to Catholics and adopted citi- j 
zens. I 

Sir, I do not know, nor care, what a man's re- | 
ligious opinions may be. I would as soon sitpport I 
a Catholic for office as a man professing any other | 
religion, provided he was qualified, and his polit- j 
ioal sentiments cori'esponded with my own. I ; 
think, sir, in reference to this Government of i 
ours, that our only safety, or at least, that our j 
greatest safety, upon this subject of religion, is in ' 
carrying out the policy never to carry our religion 
into polities, and never carry our politics to \ 
church. They are distinct and separate — unal- j 
terably so. A Catholic is as much entitled to '■ 
protection in this country as those of any other j 
religion. I have no prejudice against the Catho- 
lics, nor have 1 against foreigners. I voted, the f 
last time I voted, in my own State, for an adopted 
citizen; and I expect to vote for them in future as ■ 
often as they are presented, provided they are j 
qualified. 

Mr. BINGEIAM. The honorable gentlenian 
from Illinois [Mr. Richardson] has stated to the ' 
House that he has answered all of my questions ' 
except the first and fifth. I beg leave to ask that ^! 



I gentleman whether, in his remarks, he has given 
! any reply to my second, third, fourth, and sixth 
interrogatories; and will the gentleman respond 
, to those questions ? 

Mr. RICHARDSON. In reply to the gentte- 
man from Ohio, I have to say that I substantially 
I responded to his interrogatory this morning. 
I Mr. BINGHAM. In what way has the gen- 
i tleman answered the second, third, fourth, and 
[ sixth questions which I had the honor to submit 
I to him.- 

j Mr. RICHARDSON. I said, in my remarks 
this morning, that, in my opinion, the people of 
a Territory have the right either to establish or 
prohibit AtYican slavery. I think that is an an- 
swer to the gentleman's question. 

Mr. BINGHAM. Does the gentleman mean 
to be understood assaying that the people of the 
Territory of Kansas can, by territorial enactment, 
establish or prohibit African slavery therein? 

Mr. RICHARDSON. I do not wish to single 
out a particular instance. 

Mr. BINGHAM. Mr. Clerk, I submit to the 
House that the honorable gentleman from Illinois 
has not answered my several interrogatories, 
either directly or indirectly, and I insist upon full 
and ex)")licit answers thereto. 

Mr. COBB, of Georgia. I object to those in- 
terrogatories. The answers of the gentleman 
from Illinois and of other gentlemen have been 
given, and have gone to the country. The country 
will determine whether the questions of the gen- 
tleman from Ohio [Mr. Bingham] have been an- 
swered. It is not for any gentleman here to rise 
and propound verbal questions. I objected to it 
when it came from the gentleman from Missis- 
sippi, [Mr. Barksdale,] and 1 object now when 
it comes from another quarter. I insistupon pur- 
suing the regular course laid out this morning, 
and which we have pursued. I repeat, the an- 
swers of the gentleman from Illinois have gone 
to the country, and the country will judge of 
their pertinence. 

Mr. BINGHAM. If the ciuestions have not 
been answered, how will the country judge.' 1 
have put no question to the gentleman which was 
not reduced to writing by me. 

Mr. COBB. The questions, with the answers, 
have gone to the country, and it will be for the 
country to determine whether they are pertinent 
or not. 

Mr. STANTON. That certainly is sufficient. 
I think that ought to be satisfactory to my col- 
league, [Mr. Bingham.] 

Mr. BINGHAM. I submitted, in writing, a 
series of questions, as authorized by the resolu- 
tion of the House. Some of these questions 
have not been answered. They were respectfully 
and proj)erly submitted, and 1 have a right to 
insist Ujion an answer to them. 

Mr. COIjB. I call to order; the gentleman from 
Ohio is out of order. 

Mr. BINGHAM. The resolution passed by 
the House yesterday authorized these interroga- 
tories to be put to gentlemen; and the resolution 
implied, if it meant anything, that the questions 
should be ansv^-ered. 

Mr. COBB. I call to order. I insist that it 
shall be enforced. 

The CLERK. No order was made by the 
House in the matter; but it v/as agreed, by com- 



14 



mon conspnt, that the qiipstions should bo put to 
the gentlemen who arc before the House as can- 
didates for the sjK'akership, in succession. 

[Crirsof'Call the roll!" " Hear Baxks !"] 

Mr. HUMPHREY MARSHALL I suppose 
that the other jrentlemen will answer, of course. 

Mr. BINGHAM. I desire to call the attention 
•f the House and the country to tiie fact 

Mr. HOUSTON. I call the gentleman to 
order. 

Mr. BINGHAM. I insist on my right to be 
henrd for ten minutes. 

The CLERK. The gentleman from Ohio will 
recollect that universal objection was made to t!ie 
gentleman from Mississippi [Mr. Barksdale] 
proceeding when he proposed questioning tlic 
g;entleman from Massachusetts, and in this way 
interferin.g with what seemed to be the course 
that it was the general wisji should be pur.sued. 

Mr. BINGHAM. Does the Clerk say that I 
ran out of order in putting inquiries to the gentle- 
man from Illinois? 

The CLERK. The Clerk makes no decision. 
If the House consent, the gentleman will proceed 
with his remarks. The Clerk merely suggests, 
as it seems to be the pleasure of the House, that 
the questions had better go around. 

Mr. BINGHAM . Very well , then ; I yield the 
floor. [Cries of "That is right!" " i\ow let 
the qu'\stions go around!"] 

Mr. BANK'S. I repeat, Mr. Clerk, the prin- 
ciple on whicli I answer interrogatories from any 
?uarter, and it is, that 1 speak as a member of this 
louse for one of the districts of the State of 
Massachusetts. 

In regard to my position as connected with the 
parties of the country, I wish to mUke my state- 
ment in my own way, inasmuch as it is a matter 
which particularly concerns myself. I will state 
tlie facts, and the gentleman from Mississippi, 
[IVJr. Daricsdale,] and other gentlemen, v/ill 
draw their own inferences. What they may be, 
it is not tor nie to say. When 1 was elected to 
this House as a member from the State of Mas- 
sachus(;tts, I was elected on the nomination of 
the regular Democratic party and of the Ameri- 
can party of that district. I'hc American party 
wa« very largely in the majority. I avowed my 
sentiments I'reely and fully on the questions which 
are involved in the issue presented by that party, 
before there was any especial cause for me to do 
BO, and before it had attracted the atten ion of the 
country; and as an answer to the fourth int<T- 
rogatoi-y put to me by the gentleman from Mis- 
■issi]ipi, after it iiad been submitted to the gentle- 
man from Illinois, I have only to say that, in the 
■peech which I delivered to this body during the 
la.st Congress, 1 expressed freely and fully all my 
opinions on the subject. The record is there, and 
to it 1 irfrr the gentlemen for information. L»>t 
the ncord speak. I have adopted the maxim of 
Junius, that it is an unfortunate waste of time for 
aman io spend any con.sideraUe portion of his life 
incornrneniarics on his own works. [Laughter.] 

1 come now to speak to the interrogatory in 
reference to the equality of the white and black 
races. * 

Mr. BARKSDALE. Take the next one before 
that. 

Mr. BANKS. Phrase allow me to .speak to 
fha inl.jro^itories in my own order. 



'j i have to say, in this matter, that I accept the 
'■ ! doctrine of the Declaration of Independence, th^t 

I all men are created equal. In regard to the su- 
li periority of races, I am impressed with the con- 
viction that it is to be determined ultimately by 

I ! capacity for endurance. So far as I have studied 
'!the subject, it seems to me to be the gencriU 
j I law, that the weaker is absorbed or disappears 
i I altogether. Whether the black race of this con- 
iitinent, or any other part of the world, is equal 
; to the white race, can only be determined by the 

I I absorption or disappearance of one or the other: 
and I propose to wait until the respective race;^ 

I can be properly subjected to this philosophical 

' test before I give a aecisive ansv/cr. [Roars of 
' i laughter.] 

i As the other question is the key to the politics 
jiof the country, I will now give it my atteri- 

jtion. 

! j "Are you in favor of rostoiinn the ]Missouri rostric-tfon ; 
] I or do yoii po t'or the entire proiiit)irioti of slavery in all tl)« 
'■ ' Territories of the IJaitcd States?" 

ij The territorial question of this day refers to th« 
: . Territories of Kansas and Nebraska. I li ave tlie 
' ' territories which are to come hereafter t) the 
;i hereafter; but I say, at the same time, that I am 
I in favor of the prohibition of slavery in Kansas 
jand Nebraska. Then, in regard to the first claus« 
I of the intcTrogatory — are you in favor of restor- 
! i ing the Missouri restriction ? — I have to say that I 
' ! desire that the prohibition made by southern men 
'[and southern States — the inhibition of the insti- 
tution of slavery in the Territories of Kansas and 
j j Nebra.'ska — shall be made good to tlie people of tht 
country. 1 care not in what manner it shall be 
I done — whether there be a restoration of the tech- 
\ nical and arbitrary line, or b)' some other methods, 
I j or appliances, or principles, there shall be mad* 
j good to the people of the United States the pra- 
I hibition for which the southern States contracted 
I and received a consideration. I am for the sub- 
I stantial restoration of the prohibition as it has 
i existed since 1320. 

I Ihn-e are several questions in regard to slavery 
: in the District of Columbia and the modifi::ation 

I j of the tariff laws as they nov/ exist. I stand here 
[ready and desirous and determined to cooi)eratc 
: witli the men of the United States who are for the 

'substantial I'estoraiion of the prohibilionof the 

''\ institution of slavf^ry in the Territories of Kiinsafl 

and Ni;braska. I am ready to act with men of 

I I any party and of any viev.'s for the accomplish- 
i I ment of this great end. I shall ask no man with 

i whom I shall cooperate in this matter what he 
!l think's of the abolition of slavery in the District 
J of Columbia, or what he thinks, or shall do on 
■ the tarifi" question. 

I In my view of the politics of this country 
'I t'lesc questions are not in issue; and, sir, inas- 
i much as I propose to ask no opinions of tho»3 
jwith whom I coopcrr.te, upon such questions 
apart from the great political issues of ihiscominjf 
year, so, sir, I say, that 1 have no opinions myself 
to pronounce. That, Mr. Clerk, is my answer. 

Mr. FULLER, of Pennsylvania. xVIr. Clerk, 
I shall answer the questions specifically and di- 
rectly, reserving to myself the privilege of moi« 
full explanation hereafter. 

"Are yo'j i;i favor of restorins the Missouri rosirictif'U. 
or A) you go Ijr tlie ei)t;r(! p;oii)bilioii of slavery in all th« 
Tc.-ritorioi oC tlic Uaitcd States.-" 



15 



I am opposed to any legislation upon those sub- 
jects for reasons already given. 

"Are }(iu ill favor of aboli^iiinj; slaveiy in the District 
•f Columbia and the United States forts, dock-yards, &c?" 

I am not, sir. 

" Do you li'^Iiove in tlie equality of the white and black 
raccis ill tlie United States, and do you wish to proiuote 
tfiat equality by legislation ?" 

I do not, sir. I acknowledge a decided prefcr- 
ejice for white people. [Laughter.] 

" Are you in favor of the entire exclusion of adopted 
tJtizans and Uoman CatJiolics from otliee r" 

[Cries of " Yes or no!" and laughter.] 
Mr. Clerk, I think with General Washington — 
Mvd he is a very high authority — that it does not 
connport with the policy of tliis country to ap- 

Eoint foreigners to office to the exclusion of native- 
orn citizens. [Loud ajiphutse in the galleries.] 
But I wish to say that 1 proscribe no man be- 
cause of his religion; I denounce no man because 
•f his politics. I accord to all the largest liberty 
•f opinion and of expression, of conscience 
and of worship. I care not, sir, what creed a 
man may profess; I care not to what denomina- 
tion he may belong; be he Mohammedan, Jew, 
or Gentile, 1 concede to him the rigiit to worship 
according to the dictates of his own judgment. 
I invade no man's altar, and would not disturb 
any man's vested rights. Whatever we have 
been, whatever we are, and whatever we may be, 
rests between us and Heaven. 1 allov/ no mortal 
to be my mediator; and, judging no man, will 
by no man be judged. With regard to those of 
foreign birth, I do not desire to exclude them. 
I say to them: "Come, enter upon tlie public 
lands; occupy the public territory; build up for 
yourselves homes, acquire pro])erty, and teach 
your children to love the Constitution and laws 
which protect tiiem;" but I do say that in all mat- 
ters of legislation, and in all matters of adminis- { 
ti'ation, ^iinericans should govern Jlincrica. '\ 

" Do you favor t!ie same modification of the tariff now ' 
tliftt j'ou did at the last session of Congress?" 1 

I was not a member of the last Congress; and 
all tliat I would now ask upon the subject of the ! 
tariif is, " to be let alone." ! 

BALLOT FOR SPEAKER. \ 

The House then proceeded to vote the one hun- : 
ired and eighth time for Speaker, with the fol- 
lowing-result: Whole number of votes cast, 207; I 
necessary to a choice, 104; of which — [ 

Nathaniel P. Banks received 94 

William A. Richardson 69 

Homy M. Fuller ai i 

Alexander C M. I'ennington 7 

John Williams ."" 1 ' 



Gilchrist Porter i 

Henry Bennett i 

So there was no choice. 

The following is the vote in detail: 

For Mr. £an/.s— Messrs. Albright, Allison, Ball, Barbour. 
Henry Bennett, Benson, Bingham, Bliss, Bradshaw, Buf- 
fin^ton, Burlinganie, James H. Campbell, Lewis D. Camp- 
bell, Chaffee, Clawson, Colfax, Coniins, Cragiii,CnmbacK. 
Uamrell, Timothy Davis, Day, Dean, De Witt, Dick, Dick-' 
son, Dodd, Durl'ee, Edie, Einrie, Flagler, Gallowav, Gid- 
dings, Gilbert, Granger, G,ow, Kobert B. Hall, Harlan, 
Holloway, Tliomas II. Hortoii, Valentine B. Hortoii. How- 
ard, Hughstoii, Kelsey, King, Knapp, Knight. Knovvlton, 
Knox, Leiter, Mace, Marteson, McCartv, iVIcaehaiii, Mor- 
gan, Morrill, Mchols, Norton, Andrew Oliver, Parker, 
Pcarce, Pelton, I'oninngton, Pettit, Pike, Pringle, Purvj- 
ance, Ritclsie, Robbins, Kobison, Sabin, Sage, Sapp, Sher- 
man, Simmons, Spinner, Stanton, Stranahan. Tappaii, 
Thoringlon, Thurston, Todd, Tyson, VVadt^, VValbridg!?, 
WaldroM, Cadwaladcr C. Washburne, Elliliu B. VVash- 
buriic, ]>rael Washburn, Watson, Welch, Wood, Wood- 
ruff', and AV'oodwortli. 

For Mr. Riclianhon — Messrs. Aiken, Allei., Barclay, 
Barksdale, Bell, Hendley S. Bennett, Bocoek, Bowie, 
Boyce, Branch, Burnett, Cadwaladcr, Oaruthers, Caski*', 
Clingnian, Howell Cobb, Wiliiainson K. W. Cobb, Craigt;, 
Davidson, Denver, Dovvdell, Edniundson, Elliott, iinglitii!, 
Faulkner, Florence, Thoinas J. D. Fuller. Goode, Green- 
wood, Augustus Hall, Sampson W. Harris, Thomas L. 
Harris, Herbert, Hiekniaii, Houston, Jewett, Georire W. 
Jones, Keitt, Kelly, Kidwell, Letcher, Lumpkin, Samuel 
S. Marshall, Maxwell, Me.Miillin, McUuecn, Smith Miller, 
Millson, Mordecai ()liv('r, Orr, Peek, Pliclps. Powell, 
Quitman, Kuril n, Kust, Sandidge, Savage, Sanuii'l A. Smiiti, 
William Smith, Stephens, Stewart, 'I'albott, Vail, War- 
ner, Watkins, Winslow, Daniel B. Wriaht, and John V 
Wright. 

For Mr. Faller—Mpssrs. Broom.. lohn P. Campbell, Car- 
lile. Cox, Cullcn, Henry Vv'int r Davis, ICllii riilgc, Eu.-li!=. 
Evans, Foster, J. Morrison Harris, Holiina:!, Kcnncu; 
Lake, Lindley, Humphrey Mar.--hali, Alixaii(l(.'r K. JMar- 
siiail, Miihvard, Panic, I'ortcr, Puiyear, R :adc. Ready, Iti- 
eaud. Rivers, VVilliani R. Smith, .Sneed, Swopc, Tripiit, 
Underwood, Valk, Walker, Wliiiney, and Zollicoller. 

For Mr. Pcimni<;ijn— Messrs. Bi^iiop, Diui;i. Edward.", 
Harrison, Haven, Moore, and Scott. 

For Mr. H'iUiums~Mi: Wheeler. 

For Mr. Portcr~Mv. Henry M. Fuller. 

Fir Ml-. -Bennett— Mr. Bienlon. 

Mr. NICHOLS (when his name was called) 
said: 1 desire to state, that Mr. Mott is absent 
from the city upon urgent business, and for that 
reason is not present to vote. 

Mr. RICHARDSON said: I have paired off 
for the day v/ith Mr. Mott, and therefore decline 
to vote. 

Mr. TAYLOR also announced that he had 
paired off with a gentleman from New York. 

Mr. PEARCE'stated that Mr. Trafton was 
detained from the House through sickness. 

Mr. EulE. I move the House do now ad- 
journ. 

The question was put, and the motion was 
agreed to. 

The House accordingly (at three o'clock) ad- 
journed till Monday, at twelve o'clock, m. 



Printed at the Congressional Globe OiDee. 



,!:„^B'?«/?y OF 



0JJ mm 



CONGRESS 



884 5 



